For sure, countries need to look inward and start digesting that many people ate the onion in the first half of the 40s. Not because we need justice for the deaths of local minorities commited by nationals, but because this type of behaviour causes great trauma not just for the victims, but the aggressors. They pass this trauma down and it remains alive in current generations. It usually doesn’t even manifest itself as outright racism, just lots of anger issues in general (I guess this part is anecdotal).
All that being said, fuck Russia for bringing this up now. They went in to Ukraine under the flag of denazification. But Latvia is in Nato, so I don’t really see this as a cassus beli, but more of sowing division in EU.
Maybe the time for mutual understanding has passed.
If you feel nazis are your main baddie, it might be better to understand what makes them tick. If not for empathy, then for hitting where it hurts.
Why do you say I am denying the presence of nazis? They are usually a niche demographic, but present in any country. I am not saying let the bastards speak hate with impunity.
They are usually a niche demographic, but present in any country.
The difference is that in the Baltics and Ukraine this is not a niche demographic anymore. Pro-Nazi views are either the norm or they appear to be because the state has been legitimizing and endorsing pro-Nazi views while suppressing the opposite viewpoint.
You see, most other countries do not officially celebrate SS regiments with parades, they don’t name their streets after or erect monuments to Nazi collaborators who participated in the Holocaust and brutally butchered hundreds of thousands of people, and they don’t teach children in schools to hate people of a certain ethnicity while teaching that Nazi collaborators were actually national heroes and freedom fighters, all while monuments and graves of the real liberators and anti-fascist fighters are destroyed.
If you feel nazis are your main baddie, it might be better to understand what makes them tick.
Are you implying that Nazis are not “baddies”?
What makes Nazis tick is hate and sadism. There is nothing deeper to understand there. And as long as that hate continues to be taught and endorsed by a country’s institutions, from the state to the educational system to media and NGOs, as is happening in Ukraine and the Baltics, the problem will only get worse.
Please don’t get me wrong, I do not know the political climate to such extent in those countries and I do believe fascist memorials should be placed in a dedicated statue park (if not pulled apart in the heat of an event).
Are you implying that Nazis are not “baddies”?
Main baddies. I feel it debases us as it does them, this 2 dimensional thinking. White power. Nazis evil. If that’s the deepest you wanna go, be my guest. Of course we have to stand up against them, I really hope no one is getting that from my writing that nazism OK.
If I can use a very clunky IT support metaphor, we definitely need incident management (firefighting) now, but we should always look at root cause analysis to avoid the problem in the future. This is not an unfamiliar problem we are facing (historically speaking).
Hey, you’re getting your wish. It will be hard for an already flailing US to stand up from the current havoc. And while it is highly speculative, I have seen some info on how deep Trump is in Putin’s pocket.
But I am playing the antilotto. I really hope I’m wrong!
"They went in to Ukraine under the flag of denazification. "
You said that as if it wasn’t true and stopping the ethnic cleansing of the large Russian speaking population wasn’t valid enough reason in itself.
The other reason was demilitarisation.
Also a valid reason since NATO expansion right next to them, undoubtably with nukes, is an existential threat.
Russia gave them plenty of chances to prevent war but they didn’t listen.
Never intended to honor the Minsk accords, as Merkel admitted, and only used it to buid up their army.
It was the west that started this with their regime change coup and wanted this to happen.
A proxy to be used and then thrown away.
It is their usual MO.
LOL are you really claiming it wouldn’t matter where you place nukes?
So the US was just being silly then when Russia wanted to put them in Cuba as retaliation for them putting them in Turkey?
TF is this supposed to mean? 🤡
Turkey is 380k from Russia.
Russia has vastly superior thech.
The embarrassing americans just keep failing to make a hypersonic missile while Russia has 4th gen ones.
Russia, China, even India and Iran.
And with all the money they are pissing away on their military LOL.
Everything you say could be true. Just like the Ukranian propaganda. More probably there are kernels of truth, blown up on both sides.
Just from my personal view, I feel a Russian army moving towards Europe gives me more angst than some very problematic Ukranian language laws. I remember the laws being in the news in Hungary waaaay back in the day, maybe even before Maidan, but I wasn’t really paying attention to happenings at the time.
While it’s true both sides would use propaganda it looks like you’re turning around the facts.
It’s NATO that despite their promise has moved further east since the german reunification and are now right on the Russian border.
It’s Russia that should and do feel threathened.
The angst you feel is a result of more red scare/the Russians are coming propaganda.
If anything you should be scared of ‘our’ side risking war.
It’s about more than “very problematic Ukranian language laws”, they literally sent nazis to ethnic cleanse them and they burnt protesters alive in Odessa for protesting. and no that wasn’t before the Maidan coup.
Here are some western reports from before the 2022 war when they didn’t get too much attention in the press and before they started to claim Russia attacked ‘unprovoked’ and there certainly weren’t any fascists in Ukraine.
Anyone who paid attention from 2014 or before would know what happened.
It’s very clear and despite being from the west with all its biased news I still know there is one clear guilty side.
I do understand how Russia feels threatened by Nato expansion, but the many ‘buffer states’ chose to be part of a defense alliance by there own will.
But the Russian reasons are pluralized now. Not only is it Nato expanding, but they are also doing everyone a favor by killing nazis again. The first one might be a true threat to Russian interests, the second one seems to be moral justification.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain these stuff and give links. Just based on these facts you provided, I might be convinced. But there is an extra layer of bias in me that will be hard to scrub, and we need to bring Orbán into the mix for me to explain. So I’ve seen first hand what Orbán did to his country under his 14 year, near totalitarian reign. Orbán is playing for the russian side. Birds of a feather…
Even though I know most politicians are trash, I’d rather be under the thumb of capitalism, than a vassal of Russia. I don’t want small kings around, who have it right by might. And that is what Russia is doing now. Maybe US and Europe too, so who knows. It’s a shame diplomacy fell through.
I never said I was a fan of Orban or Putin, I’m not. Both are the enemy of my enemy and the lesser evil.
And some countries joined NATO out of free will, plenty others had their regime changed or couped, like ukraine.
And the eastern European vasals ‘under the thumb of capitalism’ as you say are nothing more than pawns to be used for the US regime. Didn’t end well for ukraine did it?
Maybe I’ll quote another Hungarian, George Soros in (1993):
the combination of manpower from Eastern Europe with the technical capabilities of NATO would greatly enhance the military potential of the Partnership because it would reduce the risk of body bags for NATO countries, which is the main constraint on their willingness to act.
Sound familiar? NATO getting them to fight, selling them the ‘military potential’ while the eastrn Europeans fill the body bags?
Who wants to be thrown to the lions next for the US games?
While I do appreciate that Maidan brought a regime change and the many Hungarian protests haven’t, so I keep the possibility of CIA intervention open there and can ‘give you’ that much. But which other Eastern European (or Baltic for that matter) had to be coaxed into Nato? Like where were there power grabs before the 2004 wave?
If it is a choice of going from sending troops to weird desert wars or having russian boots on Hungarian land, 10 times out of ten I’d choose the former.
We can disect the harm Soros caused the world, but I feel we see it from an opposing side. He funded Orbán and co. The same group that says it would have let the Russians in in '56 without resistance because that would have saved lives. It feels this is the main argument as well, against Ukraine: ‘Stop hurting yourself’. You can say Orbán got smart and stood up to the old dude, but this part feels like speculation.
I am fairly sure I won’t get convinced otherwise in this thread, but I do appreciate the civil tone. I am also in a lucky situation where things aren’t going my way: if I’m right, I get to say it, if I’m wrong, Ukraine will be denazified and peace will reign in a new Russo-European collaboration of the likes I haven’t seen before. Peace, hegemony.
Thanks for the talk. I’m open to further discussing views if you want/have the energy.
Lol, I am hearing the glorious odes of the motherland while I read your reply.
Hey, tell me about the successful overthrow of the Nazis in 1956 Hungary. Was Imre Nagy just a legacy nazi that they forgot to clear out during the 40s?
Sorry if I come through a bit aggressive, but this is just cherrypicking data. And as a sidenote, what a thrill this discussion is! The european subreddits are ukranian echochambers, this feels like the opposite.
So, I don’t know if you know, but many countries haven’t really had a chance to digest the second world war collectively. The polish can go from zero to 100 as soon as you bring up national involvement in the holocaust.
If someone is bringing up old skeletons from a neighbouring country instead of working on their million and one problems at home, I get suspicious. Why are the Russians pointing a finger now? How is this not sewing division?
For sure, countries need to look inward and start digesting that many people ate the onion in the first half of the 40s. Not because we need justice for the deaths of local minorities commited by nationals, but because this type of behaviour causes great trauma not just for the victims, but the aggressors. They pass this trauma down and it remains alive in current generations. It usually doesn’t even manifest itself as outright racism, just lots of anger issues in general (I guess this part is anecdotal).
All that being said, fuck Russia for bringing this up now. They went in to Ukraine under the flag of denazification. But Latvia is in Nato, so I don’t really see this as a cassus beli, but more of sowing division in EU.
Trauma? They honor their nazis there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiQVVUL6iZA&t=10s
Same in the other Baltic countries.
And most of all Ukraine.
You can deny that all you want.
Maybe the time for mutual understanding has passed.
If you feel nazis are your main baddie, it might be better to understand what makes them tick. If not for empathy, then for hitting where it hurts.
Why do you say I am denying the presence of nazis? They are usually a niche demographic, but present in any country. I am not saying let the bastards speak hate with impunity.
The difference is that in the Baltics and Ukraine this is not a niche demographic anymore. Pro-Nazi views are either the norm or they appear to be because the state has been legitimizing and endorsing pro-Nazi views while suppressing the opposite viewpoint.
You see, most other countries do not officially celebrate SS regiments with parades, they don’t name their streets after or erect monuments to Nazi collaborators who participated in the Holocaust and brutally butchered hundreds of thousands of people, and they don’t teach children in schools to hate people of a certain ethnicity while teaching that Nazi collaborators were actually national heroes and freedom fighters, all while monuments and graves of the real liberators and anti-fascist fighters are destroyed.
Are you implying that Nazis are not “baddies”?
What makes Nazis tick is hate and sadism. There is nothing deeper to understand there. And as long as that hate continues to be taught and endorsed by a country’s institutions, from the state to the educational system to media and NGOs, as is happening in Ukraine and the Baltics, the problem will only get worse.
Please don’t get me wrong, I do not know the political climate to such extent in those countries and I do believe fascist memorials should be placed in a dedicated statue park (if not pulled apart in the heat of an event).
Main baddies. I feel it debases us as it does them, this 2 dimensional thinking. White power. Nazis evil. If that’s the deepest you wanna go, be my guest. Of course we have to stand up against them, I really hope no one is getting that from my writing that nazism OK.
If I can use a very clunky IT support metaphor, we definitely need incident management (firefighting) now, but we should always look at root cause analysis to avoid the problem in the future. This is not an unfamiliar problem we are facing (historically speaking).
The root cause is usa
Kill it and the nazis are leaderless
Hey, you’re getting your wish. It will be hard for an already flailing US to stand up from the current havoc. And while it is highly speculative, I have seen some info on how deep Trump is in Putin’s pocket.
But I am playing the antilotto. I really hope I’m wrong!
"They went in to Ukraine under the flag of denazification. "
You said that as if it wasn’t true and stopping the ethnic cleansing of the large Russian speaking population wasn’t valid enough reason in itself.
The other reason was demilitarisation.
Also a valid reason since NATO expansion right next to them, undoubtably with nukes, is an existential threat.
Russia gave them plenty of chances to prevent war but they didn’t listen.
Never intended to honor the Minsk accords, as Merkel admitted, and only used it to buid up their army.
It was the west that started this with their regime change coup and wanted this to happen.
A proxy to be used and then thrown away.
It is their usual MO.
The nukes have been an existential that since the 50s…
Has Russia even attempted to make a public case for Ukrainians perpetrating genocide at the UN?
LOL are you really claiming it wouldn’t matter where you place nukes?
So the US was just being silly then when Russia wanted to put them in Cuba as retaliation for them putting them in Turkey?
Well i guess you probably can’t trust russian technology so they had to get that close didn’t they 🤣 We’ve all seen Russian subs
TF is this supposed to mean? 🤡 Turkey is 380k from Russia.
Russia has vastly superior thech.
The embarrassing americans just keep failing to make a hypersonic missile while Russia has 4th gen ones. Russia, China, even India and Iran.
And with all the money they are pissing away on their military LOL.
Everything you say could be true. Just like the Ukranian propaganda. More probably there are kernels of truth, blown up on both sides.
Just from my personal view, I feel a Russian army moving towards Europe gives me more angst than some very problematic Ukranian language laws. I remember the laws being in the news in Hungary waaaay back in the day, maybe even before Maidan, but I wasn’t really paying attention to happenings at the time.
While it’s true both sides would use propaganda it looks like you’re turning around the facts.
It’s NATO that despite their promise has moved further east since the german reunification and are now right on the Russian border.
It’s Russia that should and do feel threathened.
The angst you feel is a result of more red scare/the Russians are coming propaganda.
If anything you should be scared of ‘our’ side risking war.
It’s about more than “very problematic Ukranian language laws”, they literally sent nazis to ethnic cleanse them and they burnt protesters alive in Odessa for protesting. and no that wasn’t before the Maidan coup.
Here are some western reports from before the 2022 war when they didn’t get too much attention in the press and before they started to claim Russia attacked ‘unprovoked’ and there certainly weren’t any fascists in Ukraine.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/07/16/ukrainian-far-right-extremists-receive-state-funds-to-teach-patriotism/ https://apimagesblog.com/blog/2018/11/12/training-kids-to-kill-at-ukrainian-nationalist-camp
Anyone who paid attention from 2014 or before would know what happened.
It’s very clear and despite being from the west with all its biased news I still know there is one clear guilty side.
I do understand how Russia feels threatened by Nato expansion, but the many ‘buffer states’ chose to be part of a defense alliance by there own will.
But the Russian reasons are pluralized now. Not only is it Nato expanding, but they are also doing everyone a favor by killing nazis again. The first one might be a true threat to Russian interests, the second one seems to be moral justification.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain these stuff and give links. Just based on these facts you provided, I might be convinced. But there is an extra layer of bias in me that will be hard to scrub, and we need to bring Orbán into the mix for me to explain. So I’ve seen first hand what Orbán did to his country under his 14 year, near totalitarian reign. Orbán is playing for the russian side. Birds of a feather…
Even though I know most politicians are trash, I’d rather be under the thumb of capitalism, than a vassal of Russia. I don’t want small kings around, who have it right by might. And that is what Russia is doing now. Maybe US and Europe too, so who knows. It’s a shame diplomacy fell through.
I never said I was a fan of Orban or Putin, I’m not. Both are the enemy of my enemy and the lesser evil.
And some countries joined NATO out of free will, plenty others had their regime changed or couped, like ukraine.
And the eastern European vasals ‘under the thumb of capitalism’ as you say are nothing more than pawns to be used for the US regime. Didn’t end well for ukraine did it?
Maybe I’ll quote another Hungarian, George Soros in (1993):
Sound familiar? NATO getting them to fight, selling them the ‘military potential’ while the eastrn Europeans fill the body bags?
Who wants to be thrown to the lions next for the US games?
While I do appreciate that Maidan brought a regime change and the many Hungarian protests haven’t, so I keep the possibility of CIA intervention open there and can ‘give you’ that much. But which other Eastern European (or Baltic for that matter) had to be coaxed into Nato? Like where were there power grabs before the 2004 wave?
If it is a choice of going from sending troops to weird desert wars or having russian boots on Hungarian land, 10 times out of ten I’d choose the former.
We can disect the harm Soros caused the world, but I feel we see it from an opposing side. He funded Orbán and co. The same group that says it would have let the Russians in in '56 without resistance because that would have saved lives. It feels this is the main argument as well, against Ukraine: ‘Stop hurting yourself’. You can say Orbán got smart and stood up to the old dude, but this part feels like speculation.
I am fairly sure I won’t get convinced otherwise in this thread, but I do appreciate the civil tone. I am also in a lucky situation where things aren’t going my way: if I’m right, I get to say it, if I’m wrong, Ukraine will be denazified and peace will reign in a new Russo-European collaboration of the likes I haven’t seen before. Peace, hegemony.
Thanks for the talk. I’m open to further discussing views if you want/have the energy.
The last time a russian army moved towards europe they liberated the world from the nazis
And the one before that they liberated Europe from Napoleon.
Lol, I am hearing the glorious odes of the motherland while I read your reply.
Hey, tell me about the successful overthrow of the Nazis in 1956 Hungary. Was Imre Nagy just a legacy nazi that they forgot to clear out during the 40s?
Sorry if I come through a bit aggressive, but this is just cherrypicking data. And as a sidenote, what a thrill this discussion is! The european subreddits are ukranian echochambers, this feels like the opposite.
What?
Removed by mod
So, I don’t know if you know, but many countries haven’t really had a chance to digest the second world war collectively. The polish can go from zero to 100 as soon as you bring up national involvement in the holocaust.
If someone is bringing up old skeletons from a neighbouring country instead of working on their million and one problems at home, I get suspicious. Why are the Russians pointing a finger now? How is this not sewing division?