You stated that the Nazis did some good things, but that they also did many horrible things, and used that to show that the good the USSR did was outweighed by the bad. That right there is Nazi apologia, the sheer scale of bad in the Nazis far surpassed that of the Soviets, just like the sheer good of the Soviets far outweighed that of the Nazis, to incomparable levels. Using the Nazis as an “easy example” doesn’t prove your point better, it serves as Nazi apologia.
No, Finland did not achieve better metrics at a larger scale, and further I already explained that Finland is Imperialist. It’s a landlord in country form, like the rest of Western Europe, and especially the US.
As for how Finnish Imperialism works, through various international loans and overseas production, Finland extracts superprofits off of exploitation of the Global South. To get into specifics of this takes up entire volumes, but you can start with Lenin’s Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism to see how the system generally works, though not specific to Finland.
20 million soviet citizens died in World War 2, and half of their buildings were destroyed. The Winter War does not compare, neither in proportion nor in raw quantity, to the sheer amount of rebuilding necessary. That’s also ignoring Finland’s history of anticommunism and cozying up to fascists.
The Workers in the Soviet Union were not sent to camps to die en mass. The "ruling class’ was the Proletariat. There was Prison labor, but overall incarceration rates, even despite having genuine Tsarists and fascists to contend with, were usually lower than the United States as a comparison. Consider reading Russian Justice.
The Soviet Union served the Working Class. Free, high quality healthcare and education, dramatically lowered wealth inequality, support for national liberation movements globally, defeated the Nazis, provided childcare, large movements in women’s rights, democratized the economy, and more.
The notion that there was a “ruling class” that exploited the workers is ludicrous, because they would have sucked at their job given that they dramatically lowered wealth inequality. They walked the walk as well as talked the talk.
used that to show that the good the USSR did was outweighed by the bad.
Nope. I used it to show that it is possible that the good the USSR did was outweighed by the bad. That the concept exists.
The Nazis are a warning example of what we must never become. It is super scary that it is not allowed to talk about them. In this case nothing like Nazis actions was under conversation, but sometimes things do look almost 1:1 the same as Germany looked in 1920’s when the foundations for Nazism were laid and early 1930’s. It is not good that it is considered Nazi apologia, because if we can’t say aloud when things are going that way again, we will eventually end up Nazis ourselves.
I used to live in Germany, and it scared me that people there don’t see that their way will eventually lead to rise of fascism again, no matter how understandable the principles behind the “do not compare anything to Nazis” rule is! When it comes again, Germans are not going to anything to stop it, and will stop anyone who does try to. Except, of course, if it uses the swastika. Then it will be stopped.
But, now back to the actual subject!
The Workers in the Soviet Union were not sent to camps to die en mass.
Correct, it was largely based on the ethnic background, not so much on social strata. For example Latvians were sent there in such amounts that now almost 50 % of Latvians speak Russian as their main language. It also does not really matter if they were sent there en mass or not, when several millions from around Soviet Union were sent there and 70 % of them died. Camps where millions are sent and less than a third come back alive is not something that can ever be considered acceptable. Camps where you put six people to sleep in a space built for one or two are not okay. It is not okay, it was not okay, and it never will be okay. And it is not okay to defend them.
Then there are some claims that you just let hanging in the air:
No, Finland did not achieve better metrics at a larger scale
I already explained that Finland [was between 1917 and 1991] Imperialist
Finland extract[ed] superprofits off of exploitation of the Global South [between 1917 and 1991].
You need to elaborate on those. I did alter the quotes, because in the context of comparing countries’ growth 1917–1991 whatever happened after 1991 is not really relevant. The altered parts are marked clearly.
“ruling class” – would have sucked at their job given that they dramatically lowered wealth inequality.
The job of the ruling class is not to maximize wealth inequality. They very often do that, yes, but it is not their job. Lowering wealth inequality is a sign of the ruling class is doing their job correctly, not incorrectly. I do not understand why you would think otherwise.
Everyone can understand that good doesn’t outweigh bad, you don’t need an analogy to show that. Instead, you went out of your way to compare the Soviets to the Nazis, which I already showed is a form of Nazi apologia. It isn’t about not being able to talk about the Nazis, far from it, we should study them, and what gave rise to them (throwback to when I recommended you read Blackshirts and Reds, which you seem to have ignored).
Your next paragraph is unsourced claims of mass killings and deaths in labor camps. Given your tendency to believe literal propagandists uncritically shown in other comments, and that you haven’t given a source, it sounds to me that you’re probably getting it from Robert Conquest and other anticommunist myth makers from before the Soviet Archives were opened up. Again, throwback to Russian Justice.
Finland has been Imperialist for a long time, and is Imperialist today, correct. You can read the book I suggested from Lenin to see the general process of Imperialism. The vast majority of the labor you consume, in the form of commodities, etc comes from the Global South. The Western countries, with the US at the top, reap the largest benefits off of hyper-exploiting workers in the global south for poverty wages. Finland doesn’t rely on its own production, Finland relies on the labor of others.
As for the idea of a ruling class, it wasn’t about wealth inequality, but wealth in total. The highest ranking members of the Soviet Union did not live lavish, princely lifestyles. The top and bottom had a difference of roughly 10 times, not 100s or 1000s or more like in Tsarist Russia or modern Capitalist Russia. There was no “ruling class,” the Proletariat ran society.
You stated that the Nazis did some good things, but that they also did many horrible things, and used that to show that the good the USSR did was outweighed by the bad. That right there is Nazi apologia, the sheer scale of bad in the Nazis far surpassed that of the Soviets, just like the sheer good of the Soviets far outweighed that of the Nazis, to incomparable levels. Using the Nazis as an “easy example” doesn’t prove your point better, it serves as Nazi apologia.
No, Finland did not achieve better metrics at a larger scale, and further I already explained that Finland is Imperialist. It’s a landlord in country form, like the rest of Western Europe, and especially the US.
As for how Finnish Imperialism works, through various international loans and overseas production, Finland extracts superprofits off of exploitation of the Global South. To get into specifics of this takes up entire volumes, but you can start with Lenin’s Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism to see how the system generally works, though not specific to Finland.
20 million soviet citizens died in World War 2, and half of their buildings were destroyed. The Winter War does not compare, neither in proportion nor in raw quantity, to the sheer amount of rebuilding necessary. That’s also ignoring Finland’s history of anticommunism and cozying up to fascists.
The Workers in the Soviet Union were not sent to camps to die en mass. The "ruling class’ was the Proletariat. There was Prison labor, but overall incarceration rates, even despite having genuine Tsarists and fascists to contend with, were usually lower than the United States as a comparison. Consider reading Russian Justice.
The Soviet Union served the Working Class. Free, high quality healthcare and education, dramatically lowered wealth inequality, support for national liberation movements globally, defeated the Nazis, provided childcare, large movements in women’s rights, democratized the economy, and more.
The notion that there was a “ruling class” that exploited the workers is ludicrous, because they would have sucked at their job given that they dramatically lowered wealth inequality. They walked the walk as well as talked the talk.
Nope. I used it to show that it is possible that the good the USSR did was outweighed by the bad. That the concept exists. The Nazis are a warning example of what we must never become. It is super scary that it is not allowed to talk about them. In this case nothing like Nazis actions was under conversation, but sometimes things do look almost 1:1 the same as Germany looked in 1920’s when the foundations for Nazism were laid and early 1930’s. It is not good that it is considered Nazi apologia, because if we can’t say aloud when things are going that way again, we will eventually end up Nazis ourselves.
I used to live in Germany, and it scared me that people there don’t see that their way will eventually lead to rise of fascism again, no matter how understandable the principles behind the “do not compare anything to Nazis” rule is! When it comes again, Germans are not going to anything to stop it, and will stop anyone who does try to. Except, of course, if it uses the swastika. Then it will be stopped.
But, now back to the actual subject!
Correct, it was largely based on the ethnic background, not so much on social strata. For example Latvians were sent there in such amounts that now almost 50 % of Latvians speak Russian as their main language. It also does not really matter if they were sent there en mass or not, when several millions from around Soviet Union were sent there and 70 % of them died. Camps where millions are sent and less than a third come back alive is not something that can ever be considered acceptable. Camps where you put six people to sleep in a space built for one or two are not okay. It is not okay, it was not okay, and it never will be okay. And it is not okay to defend them.
Then there are some claims that you just let hanging in the air:
You need to elaborate on those. I did alter the quotes, because in the context of comparing countries’ growth 1917–1991 whatever happened after 1991 is not really relevant. The altered parts are marked clearly.
The job of the ruling class is not to maximize wealth inequality. They very often do that, yes, but it is not their job. Lowering wealth inequality is a sign of the ruling class is doing their job correctly, not incorrectly. I do not understand why you would think otherwise.
Everyone can understand that good doesn’t outweigh bad, you don’t need an analogy to show that. Instead, you went out of your way to compare the Soviets to the Nazis, which I already showed is a form of Nazi apologia. It isn’t about not being able to talk about the Nazis, far from it, we should study them, and what gave rise to them (throwback to when I recommended you read Blackshirts and Reds, which you seem to have ignored).
Your next paragraph is unsourced claims of mass killings and deaths in labor camps. Given your tendency to believe literal propagandists uncritically shown in other comments, and that you haven’t given a source, it sounds to me that you’re probably getting it from Robert Conquest and other anticommunist myth makers from before the Soviet Archives were opened up. Again, throwback to Russian Justice.
Finland has been Imperialist for a long time, and is Imperialist today, correct. You can read the book I suggested from Lenin to see the general process of Imperialism. The vast majority of the labor you consume, in the form of commodities, etc comes from the Global South. The Western countries, with the US at the top, reap the largest benefits off of hyper-exploiting workers in the global south for poverty wages. Finland doesn’t rely on its own production, Finland relies on the labor of others.
As for the idea of a ruling class, it wasn’t about wealth inequality, but wealth in total. The highest ranking members of the Soviet Union did not live lavish, princely lifestyles. The top and bottom had a difference of roughly 10 times, not 100s or 1000s or more like in Tsarist Russia or modern Capitalist Russia. There was no “ruling class,” the Proletariat ran society.