Based.
They already have lennygrad.
Honestly, I don’t think we need them here.
the have genzdong in there lol
Agree with you in general, but I think a lot if people here are not really informed what differences there are materialistic ideologies.
Yes, Stalin bad.
But Guevara is not Stalin.
Marx is not che
Engels is not Marx
China is not communist.
Marxism is not materialism
Socialism is not communism
Also the amount of people bringing the “the 3 times people tried socialism were bad, so the whole ideology must be bad” argument are way to high IMHO.
How many times was capitalism tried? How many times it worked out? Is the USA a “functioning” state with all the oppression, racism, greed, invading other countries out of monetarian interest and environment destruction?
While I agree with you, that oppression is bad, no matter what the oppressor calls himself, we should talk about policies without resorting to dogmas and generalising people in favor of fear the hegemonic class is propagating to stay in power.
When a liberal says “tankie” they mean anything remotely communist-looking. When a leftist says “tankie”, they mean authoritarians who like red flags and self-proclaimed communists who nonetheless support hierarchies and have no plan or intention to bring them down. I think the vast majority of people here knows this already.
I think the vast majority of people here knows this already.
You are way optimistic.
Mostly True, while (at least in my part of the world) there are a lot of people who like red flags but fight against hierarchies.
Yeah, that’s not the tankies here; these are “North Korea is a great country, actually” tankies.
Also, “anything negative about a communist country is US propaganda”
or “russia is correctly in invading ukraine”
Should probably listen to Blowback Season 3.
Not to say they’re a perfect country but to pretend that anyone in the West can critique them when their material conditions are dictated by the actions of the West is just comical.
If you aren’t a materialist, what are you even doing? As if history happens in the realm of pure thought…
The material conditions forcing North Korea to make work camps
Bugger off, tankie
Is the USA a “functioning” state with all the oppression, racism, greed, invading other countries out of monetarian interest and environment destruction?
I hope you realize that this is an incredibly privileged take. The US is rife with issues, but the hardships experienced by the average western citizen doesn’t even compare to the suffering that you would find in, say, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, or (to a less extreme extent) Maduro’s Venezuela. To compare what a US citizen deals with on a daily basis due to capitalism to what a citizen of any of those countries had to go through is very reductive and may be perceived as disrespectful to many who had to live those experiences.
The United States, for all it’s faults, is the pretty side of capitalism.you don’t even need to look to the most poor countries to see a standard of living that makes even directly post ww2 soviet union look like a great place.
The US is rife with issues, but the hardships experienced by the average western citizen doesn’t even compare to the suffering that you would find in, say, Pol Pot’s Cambodia
I have some fellas from Detroit that would disagree.
My dude you need to stop right now before you end up saying that genocide isn’t that bad. Because that’s what Pol Pot did.
Genocide and pol pot is terrible. So is the USA.
Killing millions and being dysfunctional are in a different realm of terrible. I’m sorry, but how did you come to the conclusion that they are even comparable?
hm i wonder if theres any capitalist countries with a history of committing genocide…
I’m all ears. Please give me a list so I can expand my understanding.
For the person dying of hunger is the same. But yeah, killing millions is bad and is something America NEVER did, right?
Implying the us is better than Cambodia because Cambodia committed genocide is very weird, considering that the US did so too
You can’t be serious…
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Im not from USA, and from my point of view its mich worse than most other countries (no healthcare, no independend courts, murder sprees in schools nearly every day, opression of half of the world (a half of them just to get more oil to destroy the planet faster), one of 3 of the biggest war-pushers in whole earth, polutes and destroys earth mode than every other country per citizens, etc. PP.)
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capitalism mostly opresses and profits from people out of the country to Funktion. if its Bad in Venezuela or Cuba or Afghanistan, or even early russia, thats at least partly fault of US.
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Venezuela is not communism, China isnt, russia isnt. Most of them have failed, at least partly because caputalist societys atack them and stop a as soon as they are born and they can’t form a stable democracy. Before reading Marx, your bashing of communism isnt worth anything, as you clearly don’t understand what you are talking about. We never had communism, and some would say not even socialism. You sound like you don’t even know the difference, since you keep talking about communism, which is a utopian society after humanity has stopped a lot of bad habits and has learned to live without working against each other in competition and working together instead, which arises maybe after generations of workig socialism, which we clearly didn’t have.
4.you exactly prove my point. I dont agree with tankies either, but the number of people around here blindly copying capitalist propaganda while understanding nothing they bash about is too damm high.
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Seems weird that you want to ignore the fact that communism has never worked once lol
Capitalism has killed orders of magnitude more than communism.
There have been orders of magnitude more people living under capitalism than communism
Again: seems weitd that you think, a New thing needs to work after 3 -5 trys.
Capitalism was tried 100erds of times and still doesnt work…
What are some good actual communist lemmy communities that aren’t supporting the fucking capitalist imperialist russian invasion?
look for anarchists if you desire a classless, stateless, moneyless society.
communism has been coopted by auth apologists infatuated with the color red.
But what if I’m not an anarchist? I like Marx but not Lenin, so I can’t be an ML either.
There are an infinite variety of flavors of socialism, at some point you gotta learn to find folks you don’t disagree with on anything too important. In my experience anarchists are generally chill.
Read ‘On Authority’ by Engels. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm
I don’t know how any of that applies to what I said here.
Edit: I skimmed through the text on the first read because I was sleepy. After reading more carefully I guess you’re agreeing with me somewhat: yes, the necessity for certain types of organization in specific situations is why I dislike anarchism.
I don’t know why a certain ineffective administrative model would have to be coupled with a more equitable economic model. Although I didn’t want to argue that point, rather express a preference.
I fail to see why you would disagree with Lenin, when what he did was put Marxism (according to Marx and Engels) into practice, of course adjusted to fit the conditions of Russia at the time.
I disagree that he ever did anything approaching Marxism. His writings and his actions are pretty distant from one another.
Well I would disagree with that assertion. He did a fine work of applying Marxism to the conditions of Russia at the time, although he didn’t live too long so we can’t really conclude where he would have gone with it. Read ‘State and Revolution’ it clearly outlines how Lenin’s ideas and how they fit perfectly within Marxism.
anarchism acknowledges Marxist theory, but rejects the need for a state/beaurocratic apparatus, as it is considered to be fundamentally oppressive.
the state is an abstraction of capital, and cannot liberate the working class, as it exists to perpetuate its own hegemonic existence, our subjugation.
governance need not be heirarchichal; I promote collective mutual determination as an egalitarian system by which society can organize.
can’t dismantle the master’s house with the master’s tools
communism has been coopted by auth apologists infatuated with the color red.
Which happened almost instantly. I don’t have much hope that other radical leftist movements will fare much better.
I’m on the FMHY instance and the only political ideology community that’s been showing up in my feed has been Anarchism, so it’s probably the instance to join if you’re libleft and don’t want to deal with Auth shit.
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ITT: a bunch of lying ideologues that deny basic historical realities like the deliberate engineering of the holodomor or the brutal repression of dissent in soviet states
Maybe if “basic history” means “literally never read a book about it by a historian”. Your description is a debunked fringe theory that was only ever entertained by a single serious historian and he was a big Cold Warrior that embarrassed himself.
You should begin your education by reading Wheatcroft and Davies.
the deliberate engineering of the holodomor
Do you have a single source to back this up?
Please, the liberals in this thread don’t even know what an Engels even is.
Engles killed 100 zillion people.
He’s my buddy I just asked for rent money
Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm
A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is
What dialectics does to a mfer
undefined> he political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution
I think the history has shown this to be false
Vaush moment
tankies more like no thankies
Can we have something like tankiejerk here? I seriously liked browsing that sub after a bad day with the red fashs.
that sub often tended towards outright anti-leftism
That’s the unfortunate thing.
Start criticizing the Soviet union and you’ll end up with a bunch of people left bashing in general.
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To tankies fascist means opposing whatever flavor of authoritarian “communism” they prefer regardless of the reasons or context. This conveniently allows any number of pogroms, mass slaughters or engineered famines to be reframed as anti-fascist action, rather than a brutal expression of state power at the expense of the working class.
Then what would you have me call people who make excuses for invasion, oppression, and genocide just because it was committed by the Russian or Chinese government instead of a western one?
Okay Stalin’s Moustache,
Listen there’s more kinds of people than liberals tankies, and fascists.
There are also anarchist who can critizes these three groups ( and others) with out being within them.
I have no problem with ML and other comrades of various flavors but if your going to be really Into to stalin your not going to be working with me.
You should read about the Spanish civil war.
But there is a clear difference between actual anarchists, who read theory and put it into practice and actually do something to further the cause, and chronically online ‘anarchists’ who only whine about tankies.
“tankies” criticize the Soviet union, you know? They also criticize the ebil See See Pee but apparently there’s no room for nuance
What’s your definition of “tankie”? If you’re willing to call out Putin’s homophobic journalist murdering authoritarian bullshit and the Chinese government’s massacring of protesters and genociding of ethnic minorities you’re not a tankie imo, you’re just a communist.
call out Putin’s homophobic journalist murdering authoritarian bullshit
The US isn’t nearly as far away from any of that as liberals like to believe.
Why is the litmus test for Tankie-ism picking sides in a civil war on the other side of the globe, while governors and senators from my home state seem giddy about imposing Putin’s policies in my backyard?
You’re pro-Putin if you don’t scream Slava Ukraine loud enough. You’re pro-CCP if you don’t cheer for American destroyers every time they sail the straight of Taiwan. You’re pro-Taliban if you’re relieved to see a 21 year long brutal occupation come to an end.
the Chinese government’s massacring of protesters and genociding of ethnic minorities
Westerners slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Iraqis for decades on end, and it was fine because we labeled them all terrorists.
We wrote country music songs celebrating the fact. We played those songs at the fucking Super Bowl while millions cheered.
But when a leftist says “Stop doing these wars! The wars are bad!” the blood drenched finger of the liberal finally finds a place to point and condemn genocide denial.
Incredible.
Westerners slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Iraqis for decades on end, and it was fine because we labeled them all terrorists.
No, it wasn’t fine, that’s kinda the point… It isn’t fine when the west does it, it’s not fine when others do it too…
I’m confused on your point.
well some people who are called “tankies” do. some of them are just rabid bhreznevites
What year do you think it is?
2023, where the maoist New People’s Army is a stronghold for human rights & dignity for the Filipino people, engaged in open war against the truly authoritarian & cruel, Imperialist backed Phillipine Republic
They even conduct gay marriages, so liberals have to support them. Sorry, I don’t make the rules.
what with all the anti-communist fascists and all
Left-bashing tends to signal a green light for more left-bashing.
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I really hate how ya’ll deliberately conflate tankies and all socialism/communism, and then conflate anyone being opposed to those concepts as inherently being a fascist.
“Tankie” is just the liberal version of “Woke”.
being opposed to those concepts as inherently being a fascist
Spreading nazi shit like double genocide theory = fascist in my book, no further investigation needed!
well is there any actually existing socialist country that you would support?
is there any actually existing socialist country that is actually socialist?
yes, cuba is pretty uncontroversialy a socialist country
i’d never have seen it coming! /s
Anticommunism and fascism are the best of friends.
Fascism? In MY “anti-tankie” subreddit? It’s more likely than you’d guess!
Nah, I joined their Discord for a bit and everyone there was a leftist.
didn’t they have a problem with people doing alt-right dogwhistles about anti-white racism recently? and it got so bad that they had to make a mod announcement telling people to stop doing it and all of the users started trying to explain to the mods how it definitely wasn’t a right wing dogwhistle
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No. Rejection of extremism does not imply acceptance of some other form of extremism.
Well then it is funny how all anti-communist spaces always end up riddled with fascists🤔
That’s because non-extremists usually aren’t particularly anti-communist. And why would they be? On paper, communism is a splendid idea. Doesn’t seem to work very well in practice, but that doesn’t make the idea bad…unlike fascism, which is bad even on paper.
On what paper? What communist books have you read?
Rejection of so-called extremism is such an enlightened centrist take, people are suffering due to the West and you would rather do nothing? Centrists are very quick to paint anything that threatens the current order as extremist, they simply do nothing productive, but toe the US state department line.
Communism worked great in practice, just look at places like Burkina Faso under Sankara, Cuba flourished when the colonizers got kicked out, USSR and China went from semi-feudal societies to world powers in a couple of decades, etc.
On the other hand, do you believe capitalism works well in practice? A majority of the countries of the world are capitalist and yet it only seems to function (hardly) in the global north which relies on imperialism.
Communism worked great in practice, just look at places like Burkina Faso under Sankara, Cuba flourished when the colonizers got kicked out, USSR and China went from semi-feudal societies to world powers in a couple of decades, etc.
Just like a western imperialist, you point at how powerful and wealthy the ruling elites of your favorite regime are and completely gloss over the suffering they cause their people.
China is a nation of slaves, locked into factories fitted with suicide nets as though they were criminals. Russia’s populace is being fed to a meat grinder solely because their president craves power and conquest. And that’s the example you’d have the rest of humanity emulate? Here in America, even our homeless live in better conditions than that!
You’re no better than those you hate—you’re hardly even different from them, let alone better—and that is why no one wants to join you in the revolution you desire.
On the other hand, do you believe capitalism works well in practice?
Of course not. But you certainly aren’t offering a better alternative. I might be down for an honest communism-ish economy—mandatory employee ownership of businesses, redistribution of wealth via wealth tax, that sort of thing—but I’m sure not buying what you’re selling.
Russia’s populace is being fed to a meat grinder solely because their president craves power and conquest
that’s not any kind of own. Russia is a capitalist country, you’re literally arguing against capitalism and then claiming that you’ve proved that capitalism is better than communism despite acknowledging that a capitalist country is feeding its populace into a meat grinder
I am not sure how I point at how powerful and wealthy the so-called ‘elites’ you mention are. I never mentioned anything about the ruling vanguard parties. I merely pointed out the massive improvements in material conditions brought about by the revolutions and vanguard parties, and I fail to see how improvements of material conditions equates to suffering…
You view of China seems very painted by your Western chauvinism, I’m willing to bet you’ve never stepped foot in China. Russia is not currently a communist country nor is it lead by communists currently so I am not sure what your point is???
Communism is the alternative, as Rosa Luxemburg said: “Socialism or barbarism”.
Why is a communist society not achievable currently? We produce more than enough food to feed everyone and we could do it much more efficiently if we stopped exploiting animals for food too, but it all gets screwed up by imperialism and greed by the global north.
Anarchy worked great in practice, until Franco killed it.
I am not sure what your point is. I have no problems with anarchists and I am inclined to agree with you. Sadly, the capitalist countries of Europe were not interested in fighting against fascism.
I have no problems with anarchists
Stalin did
non-extremists usually aren’t particularly anti-communist
just be open about it and say you want more anti-communist fascists if you’re going to go about defending how riddled with fascism these anti-communist spaces are
You really do think, that anyone who does not like communism is a fascist, huh?
“Extremism” is a term that relieves its user of making any value judgments on the political questions at hand. A thought-terminating cliché that shovels unearned acceptance on the status quo and an unearned rejection of everything else.
A particularly funny part of it is that the early architects of thst status quo would hsve counted as extremists.
“I don’t think ethnic purges are justified under any circumstance”
“YOU ARE JUST LIKE THE NAZIS”
Maybe turn off the Fox News sweetie😘
300 Comments already. Oh my god! Lol.
Gotta love it
This comment section is really something uh
Tankies on their way to explain why teaming up with the Nazis to conquer Poland is actually based and totally in line with Marxist philosophy.
Can you give an actual example?
When you definitely understand why Molotov-Ribbentrop happened
Thank fuck. I thought Lemmy was some ultra militant leftist hellhole before the shift.
I don’t like extreme radical left any more than extreme radical right.
Fuck Che Guevara. Read a book.
tankies arent radical left. they are authoritarians ffs
what if the book is Che Guevaras “Guerrilla Warfare”
Is being a good tactician and being a genocidal, totalitarian extremist an oil and water situation?
He can be both.
c/EnlightedCentrism
How about Saw Gerrera?
Saw Gerrera is an extremist and must be brought to justice for the good of the Empire.
This, but unironically. That man lost it and became a monster.
Reading books is how you become communist, not anticommunist. Anticommunism depends on an ignorance of history and incuriosity generally.
Che Guevara did a lot of good for people, like the people of Cuba. Considering he fought, and helped Cuba free itself from being a colony to the United States and against Batista. I didn’t know people fighting for the right to not be under colonial rule and have their own self determination is “extreme”.
Also maybe go check out “On revolutionary medicine” by Che Guevara. I’ll also leave this quote from him.
…the life of a single human being, is worth a million times more than all the property of the richest man on earth…
Honest question - what’s a tankie? I feel like I’ve seen them mentioned a ton on Lemmy but I’d never heard the term prior to a few days ago. From the image it looks like a maga/skinhead combo?
They’re communists, but not your every day “people should hold the power” communists. More like “tianenmen never happened, and if it did it wasn’t that bad” type
Which makes them no different from the western imperialists they hate so much.
When you definitely understand what words mean
exactly
Tankie was first used for that kind of communist supporter who kept singing Russia’s praises/defending Russia even when Russia was sent 5000 tanks to crush a popular uprising in Czechoslovakia (the “Prague Spring”) on August 20, 1968. Some people just couldn’t accept that a communist country could do something bad, so defended the action.
Nowadays, it’s used to refer to those that are strongly supportive of Russia, completely ignoring the awful things they do. Often these days there’s a lot of anti American bent to it. Like, anything anti America and American “imperialism” must be good - even blatant and awful Russian Imperialism.
These days they calmly explain how Ukraine just needs to come to the table and discuss peace (ignoring that Ukraine wouldn’t exist if they did so) and blame America for the war in Ukraine for… well… they’re America. The people who want war, or are causing the war, are those giving Ukraine weapons - not the country that is literally invading it.
Thanks for the explanation. I believe they are also called Rashists, at least Ukrainians call them that.
I think a better term is “Campist” which is the trend within revisionist marxists to side with one imperialist camp to oppose another. it’s the same shit the SPD did during WW1
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
Basically, it’s Communists who support authoritarianism.
what is “authoritarianism” to you?
heirarchy in any form
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"he’s not hurting the right people, " painted red
Sometimes its about helping the right people. Sometimes that means taking direction, working together, and not simply following your own bloated ego.
Liberals seem to get that when they’re vote canvassing, fund raising, and brigading on some social media jerk off sight.
But as soon as they see anyone to their left with any kind of organization or even a respect for their forebearers, a switch flips in their brains and all they see or hear is “tyranny”.
I’m an anarchist, but nice try.
If you are not willing to oppress the capitalist class how will a revolution ever survive? How will you quash racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. without oppression? But then again you liberals only care about these people when it benefits them🤷♀️
well that’s just childish isn’t it
do you consider that a rebuttal?
yes because it’s not anything intelligent enough to be thoughtfully argued against. a 7 year old could see the holes in such an idea
I oppose one more system of authority than you do, in the interest of ideological consistency, intellectual honesty.
are you taking the position of a literal child?
how is a small group of people commanding a big mass better?
at least over time there will always be power hungry asshole or just an idiot in position of power.no power for no one is the only concept that can really work over time. but you need self-responsible and educated people for that
edit: and yeah, it is a utopian idea, but one I believe it is worth working for
Then every social structure is authoritarian.
Anarchists usually distinguish between just and unjust hierarchies, by the way, and svoid the word “authoritarian” when describing just ones. Anarchists still need to organize themselves to have leadership and delegation.
From the image it looks like a maga/skinhead combo?
For context, the image originally said kick nazis out of punk.
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I am capable of disagreeing with multiple ideologies at once
Okay but some of them are in power right in front of you and vastly more bloodthirsty and likely to be responsible for your misery.
Funny how liberals who say this only seem to disagree with communism, I guess capitalism offers you enough treats to not give a fuck about other people😘
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Concrete views like the idea that the government being able to jail dissenters at will is bad? That unlimited state power inevitably leads to authoritarianism? That labeling yourself socialist doesn’t necessarily mean you’re actually a socialist state?
That labeling yourself socialist doesn’t necessarily mean you’re actually a socialist state?
Can you give me a single state that you consider to be socialist today and that has your support? If not, has there ever been a socialist state that is worthy to be considered as that by you?
Does that mean I have to support shitty states that pretend to care about their own citizens?
No, I was just wondering if you could name any, but it looks like no state so far has been pure and beautiful enough to at least get critical support from you. I don’t suppose this will change, idealism is one hell of a drug.
I am sorry, but ethnic cleansings are not good. If I had to pick, I think Cuba has the highest probability of achieving communism. Sadly, I have not had the time to learn all the nuances of Cuban society and political system.
ethnic cleansings are not good
Not sure why you’re saying this, did I say they were?
I think Cuba has the highest probability of achieving communism
Why? By what metric?
Also be careful out there, people smear Cuba with lies the same way they do to China, Vietnam, DPRK and Lao, some people will also call you a “tankie” for defending the “cuban regime”.
You’re so insufferably cocksure in your positions everywhere else, but when someone honestly asks what a tankie is, you just get defensive and can’t master up the courage to just say what it is that you stand for? I really get the impression that you’re just here to stir up shit.
A tankie is what liberals call people they disagree with, there you have it😪
Originally, it was used to describe communists who followed the party line and supported suppressing Hungarian workers with tanks.
Today it means ultra-authoritarian marxist-leninist.
I mean there is a word for that that’s less derogatory: Stalinist
It’s an insult used by liberals to punch left. Because liberals, as a rule, don’t really read history or politics with any depth, they don’t use it consistently. Sometimes it is conflated with communist. Sometimes they throw it at liberals that are just a bit less racist and xenophobic than them.
Originally it meant communists who supported the 1956 invasion of Hungary, and was used by British communists to split up their own parties on the issue.
Or, to put it another way: socialism has powerful enemies. Those enemies don’t care how you feel about Marx or Makhno or Deleuze or communism in the abstract, they care about your feelings towards FARC, the Naxals, Cuba, North Korea, etc. They care about your position with respect to states and contenders-for-statehood, and how likely you are to try and emulate them. They are not worried about the molecular and the rhizomatic because they know that those things can be brought back into line by the application of force. It’s their monopoly on force that they are primarily concerned to protect. When you desert real socialism in favor of ideal socialism, the kind that never took up arms against anybody, you’re doing them a favor.
take something antifascist and edit it to be anticommunist, classic reddit behavior
Tankies are not communists. They are blanquists at best.
Tankie really is the liberal version of saying woke, can’t you make up a new buzzword?🤧
anti authoritarian*
you’re telling on yourself
Anything is authoritarian if it goes against your beliefs apparently🥱, but I guess liberals do have to follow US state department dogma🤷♀️
finds social media developed by tankies
looks inside
finds tankies
fr I’m down with having a good old purge eventually but noone should be surprised
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Literally doing the “so much for the tolerant left” shtick.
there’s literally a community called “moretankie196”, they should go infest that one instead
“lemmygrad.ml” was the most infested for the last year, “lemmy.ml” the 2nd worst. They ban for being lucid. “.ml” stands for Marxist Leninist !
I thought ml stands for make love
