To be fair, it would be easier if English had kept the English terms for anatomy.
But for some reason everyone decided to only use Latin and Greek derived words.
Like seriously. Nearly every time I look at Wikipedia for anything, English articles only ever use scientific terms hardly anyone will find useful.
Example:
Wolf’s entire biological taxonomical tree from species to order. Both the translated German Wikipedia title and the English one:
Species: Wolf <> Wolf
Genus: Wolf- and Jackal-like <> Canis
Tribe: True Dogs <> Canini
Family: Dogs <> Canidae
Suborder: Doglike <> Caniformia
Order: Predatory animal <> Carnivora
Ask someone what “Caniformia” is and most would probably think you’re talking about some region on the US West Coast. Ask someone what “Doglike” refers to and most would probably guess reasonably correct.
It’s an “Anglish” wiki, based on Poul Andersson’s “Uncleftish Beholding”, a text that’s trying to see what English would look like if it didn’t have latin borrowings as much, just the teutonic words.
Here’s some atomic theory ie “uncleftish beholding”.
The firststuffs have their being as motes called unclefts. These are mighty small: one seedweight of waterstuff holds a tale of them like unto two followed by twenty-two naughts. Most unclefts link together to make what are called bulkbits. Thus, the waterstuff bulkbit bestands of two waterstuff unclefts, the sourstuff bulkbit of two sourstuff unclefts, and so on. (Some kinds, such as sunstuff, keep alone; others, such as iron, cling together in chills when in the fast standing; and there are yet more yokeways.) When unlike unclefts link in a bulkbit, they make bindings. Thus, water is a binding of two waterstuff unclefts with one sourstuff uncleft, while a bulkbit of one of the forestuffs making up flesh may have a thousand or more unclefts of these two firststuffs together with coalstuff and chokestuff.
To be fair, the atom names are literally just German. Except sunstuff, that’s Helium in German too. Not too difficult to parse imo but I may be biased.
But it’s not like I want all French influence be gone. Rather, for common things it feels… artificial(?) to use some fancy Latin word when it just refers to something so basic it shouldn’t have a Latin word outside of scientific contexts to begin with.
It’s like a science fiction novel where the author insists on naming the Earth Terra, the Moon Luna and the Sun Sol. It feels needlessly artificial and somewhat clinical.
In physics, only the abbreviations are (mostly) the same internationally. But the full terms are always translated into languages, despite being equally as technical.
In math, no terms are international - only the specification of formulas is standardized.
Music is the exception but their field belonged to elitist pricks for most of history tbf.
Art (painting) uses translated terms everywhere from what I can tell. There are no translated terms for paints, canvas type, style, periods etc.
History certainly doesn’t use international terms either. Medieval, stone age, bronze age, modern age etc. are all translated into each language.
Amd frankly, I don’t see why anatomy has to use international terms whatsoever while other fields can use translated terms without any issue.
I got confused because i initially read that as Worf instead of Wolf, and i thought that it was weird trying to make a point with a Star Trek character.
The fact that the entire medical industry does this. I like how ChubbyEmu on Youtube will do the vocabulary resurrection “Hyponatremia. Hypo meaning low, natra meaning sodium, emia, presence in blood. Low sodium presence in blood” and then he’ll use the English phrase for the rest of the video. “Because he had low blood sodium…”
The entire medical industry does this so that in every language on the planet they are talking about the same thing and know that they are talking about the same thing and that there hasn’t been a translation error. Hyponatremia is hyponatremia no matter what language you speak.
Haha not actually. In Chinese maybe when doctors talk with each other they sometimes will use the English term (by this I mean the Latin/Greek-origin one), but mostly they translate the word bits (morphemes) one by one to Chinese (低血鈉, where 低=low, 血=blood, 鈉=sodium). They never ever use the English term to patients. You won’t be able to find anyone in China or Taiwan who knows what “hyponatremia” means unless they’re in the medical industry or they’re just very good at English.
And naturally not everyone wants to pick English for the common language. If we’re picking one language people use over others, you’ll have French people wanting theirs picked and so on. So easier to pick a language that’s not the native language of anyone to sidestep that fight.
Note that these, too, have a German name, which translates to “inner taint-lips”. Just calling them “labia” in English is not just defaulting to Latin but also imprecise.
Anyone who’s a bit inquisitive about what words means will notice that “transform” means “changing shape”, and that the teeth that look like dog fangs are called “canines”. At that point, “caniformia” obviously means “dog-shaped”.
Specialistic terms don’t need to be easy for the layman, but to be explicative for the specialist.
I can say that “a complete lattice is the generalisation of the power set of some domain” which is a phrase composed entirely of English words but if you haven’t studied anything about abstract algebra you don’t knkw what it means, but that is a phrase made for math students, not for any random guy.
Also those Latin terms are literally international terms, a Russian biologist will say “Canis lupus” to an Icelandic biologist and they will understand. So you really have nothing to complain about. Just be glad that Linnaeus used an agnostic language for international terminology instead of using his native language (Swedish) like the anglophones do.
P.s. you know that Mussolini had all commonly used foreign words and names translated to Italian? And to this day Italian children don’t study Francis Bacon and René Descartes, but Francesco Bacone and Renato Cartesio.
I don’t have an issue with using scientific names in scientific contexts if you intend to publish something international researchers should be able to parse. But just like maths, there is no problem in just… translating names? Imagine if you had to phrase sentences like: “The numerus realis make up a copia infinita.” You’d have to translate Latin every time new studens would be taught because most mathematical terms convey a decent amount of information.
What I do have an issue with is using these terms anywhere outside of international contexts.
A doctor should not tell their patient they have a “humerus” fracture. In German they would take about the upper arm bone.
Or imagine if a doctor told you there is an infection in your digitus pedis. Fortunately English didn’t replace the term “toes” with its scientific one… YET.
Hell, I could even apply this to doctor names in English which require a dictionary for anyone trying to parse them. I had to look up half of them by the way.
Children’s Doctor <> Pediatrician
Women’s Doctor <> Gynecologist
Tooth Doctor <> Dentist (the least bad in my opinion - at least it’s short)
Eye Doctor <> Optometrist
Neck-Nose-Ear Doctor <> Otorhinolaryngologist (wtf???)
Skin Doctor <> Dermatologist
Like, surely there must have been (native) English terms for those doctors in the past. It’s not like the medical field popped into existence in the 1700’s. You can’t tell me a 15th century English peasent used Latin/Greek derived names for common specialized doctors.
Perfect example of why that is a bad approach. An Optometrist can measure your eyes for basic vision problems and monitor your retina issues, but you’d need an Ophthalmologist if you need surgery on those eyes for something the Optometrist finds.
Optometrists/opticians aren’t doctors over here though. They belong to the trades. This field doesn’t exist in Germany the same way it does in the US/Britain:
Optometric tasks are performed by ophthalmologists and professionally trained and certified opticians.
Eye doctors does actually refer to ophthalmologist though, I picked the “wrong” translation which ignores the differing legal frameworks. Looking back, I certainly went to the full blown ophthalmologist just for optometric purposes.
Partially. In German, the term eye doctor has first been recorded in 1401 (ougenarzt) (according to Wikipedia).
The 1700’s made enormous medical progress - but it’s not like people prior to that had no need for specialized doctors. For example, according to etymonline the term “dentist” was first used in 1759. You can’t tell me dentists didn’t exist for many centuries prior to that and didn’t have an “English-derived”, self-explanatory term. I mean, I never knew “dent” was Latin for tooth until reading the etymology just now.
Sure, but many of those words for specialised doctors came to English through French, not directly from Latin or Greek. And I don’t think that you can reasonably argue that English words with French origins aren’t by now a native part of the language. We use many of the same names in Dutch too, coming from French loanwords.
Wasn’t English’s French influence mostly over by this point? The Norman conquest added a bunch of French vocabulary but by the 1700’s, England was a stable colonial power.
And for very frequently used terms - like anatomical terms - the English root remained mostly intact and loanwords weren’t used. Arm, nose, shoulder, knee, elbow etc. are not French in origin.
I suspect it could be remnant of nobility separating itself from the common people. By only ever referring to anything with its Latin term, you can distinguish the wealthy, highly-educated from the poorer, lesser-educated people. After all, if you spoke Latin and/or Greek those terms make a lot of intuitive sense.
French remained influential in the courts, higher education, and elite society long after it stopped being the “official” language. That last part is totally right.
To be fair, it would be easier if English had kept the English terms for anatomy.
But for some reason everyone decided to only use Latin and Greek derived words.
Like seriously. Nearly every time I look at Wikipedia for anything, English articles only ever use scientific terms hardly anyone will find useful.
Example:
Wolf’s entire biological taxonomical tree from species to order. Both the translated German Wikipedia title and the English one:
Species: Wolf <> Wolf
Genus: Wolf- and Jackal-like <> Canis
Tribe: True Dogs <> Canini
Family: Dogs <> Canidae
Suborder: Doglike <> Caniformia
Order: Predatory animal <> Carnivora
Ask someone what “Caniformia” is and most would probably think you’re talking about some region on the US West Coast. Ask someone what “Doglike” refers to and most would probably guess reasonably correct.
Sharing a world with another term with less precise meaning is a bug not a feature
Feel free to have a look-see at what that could look like. Taxonomy isn’t “taxonomy” anymore, it’s “setlore.” Find that easier to understand?
https://anglish.fandom.com/wiki/Lifelore (“Lifelore” is biology)
It’s an “Anglish” wiki, based on Poul Andersson’s “Uncleftish Beholding”, a text that’s trying to see what English would look like if it didn’t have latin borrowings as much, just the teutonic words.
Here’s some atomic theory ie “uncleftish beholding”.
https://anglish.fandom.com/wiki/Uncleftish_Beholding
To be fair, the atom names are literally just German. Except sunstuff, that’s Helium in German too. Not too difficult to parse imo but I may be biased.
But it’s not like I want all French influence be gone. Rather, for common things it feels… artificial(?) to use some fancy Latin word when it just refers to something so basic it shouldn’t have a Latin word outside of scientific contexts to begin with.
It’s like a science fiction novel where the author insists on naming the Earth Terra, the Moon Luna and the Sun Sol. It feels needlessly artificial and somewhat clinical.
I disagree, using Latin terms means that all technical terms stay the same across languages.
This doesn’t apply to most other fields though.
In physics, only the abbreviations are (mostly) the same internationally. But the full terms are always translated into languages, despite being equally as technical.
In math, no terms are international - only the specification of formulas is standardized.
Music is the exception but their field belonged to elitist pricks for most of history tbf.
Art (painting) uses translated terms everywhere from what I can tell. There are no translated terms for paints, canvas type, style, periods etc.
History certainly doesn’t use international terms either. Medieval, stone age, bronze age, modern age etc. are all translated into each language.
Amd frankly, I don’t see why anatomy has to use international terms whatsoever while other fields can use translated terms without any issue.
We call them the “little lips” (which is a direct translation of labia minora btw) in my language and I don’t believe we’re losing anything there.
I got confused because i initially read that as Worf instead of Wolf, and i thought that it was weird trying to make a point with a Star Trek character.
“Mr. Worf, set course to the Vulva region on Labia Minora 4”
You’re obviously talking about noobs who aren’t watching TierZoo 😎
Yet another thing that could be fixed by better education in the US.
Please tell me where I can find out about the original English words for these things.
Ask a cunning linguist?
The fact that the entire medical industry does this. I like how ChubbyEmu on Youtube will do the vocabulary resurrection “Hyponatremia. Hypo meaning low, natra meaning sodium, emia, presence in blood. Low sodium presence in blood” and then he’ll use the English phrase for the rest of the video. “Because he had low blood sodium…”
The entire medical industry does this so that in every language on the planet they are talking about the same thing and know that they are talking about the same thing and that there hasn’t been a translation error. Hyponatremia is hyponatremia no matter what language you speak.
Haha not actually. In Chinese maybe when doctors talk with each other they sometimes will use the English term (by this I mean the Latin/Greek-origin one), but mostly they translate the word bits (morphemes) one by one to Chinese (低血鈉, where 低=low, 血=blood, 鈉=sodium). They never ever use the English term to patients. You won’t be able to find anyone in China or Taiwan who knows what “hyponatremia” means unless they’re in the medical industry or they’re just very good at English.
Meanwhile the aviation industry uses English worldwide.
And naturally not everyone wants to pick English for the common language. If we’re picking one language people use over others, you’ll have French people wanting theirs picked and so on. So easier to pick a language that’s not the native language of anyone to sidestep that fight.
Doesn’t the computer science industry as well?
Yeah, and for basically the same reason.
Carnifornia sounds like a great festival I gotta call up my rancher buds and get this going
Where are the smaller lips?
Note that these, too, have a German name, which translates to “inner taint-lips”. Just calling them “labia” in English is not just defaulting to Latin but also imprecise.
Why taint though? O.o
It’s an old term for the sexual organs that’s only used as part of terms these days. I tried to kinda match that. My translation wasn’t great, though.
Oh, okay. Thanks for the explanation
Way to damn humanity with faint praise 😄
Anyone who’s a bit inquisitive about what words means will notice that “transform” means “changing shape”, and that the teeth that look like dog fangs are called “canines”. At that point, “caniformia” obviously means “dog-shaped”.
Specialistic terms don’t need to be easy for the layman, but to be explicative for the specialist. I can say that “a complete lattice is the generalisation of the power set of some domain” which is a phrase composed entirely of English words but if you haven’t studied anything about abstract algebra you don’t knkw what it means, but that is a phrase made for math students, not for any random guy.
Also those Latin terms are literally international terms, a Russian biologist will say “Canis lupus” to an Icelandic biologist and they will understand. So you really have nothing to complain about. Just be glad that Linnaeus used an agnostic language for international terminology instead of using his native language (Swedish) like the anglophones do.
P.s. you know that Mussolini had all commonly used foreign words and names translated to Italian? And to this day Italian children don’t study Francis Bacon and René Descartes, but Francesco Bacone and Renato Cartesio.
I don’t have an issue with using scientific names in scientific contexts if you intend to publish something international researchers should be able to parse. But just like maths, there is no problem in just… translating names? Imagine if you had to phrase sentences like: “The numerus realis make up a copia infinita.” You’d have to translate Latin every time new studens would be taught because most mathematical terms convey a decent amount of information.
What I do have an issue with is using these terms anywhere outside of international contexts.
A doctor should not tell their patient they have a “humerus” fracture. In German they would take about the upper arm bone.
Or imagine if a doctor told you there is an infection in your digitus pedis. Fortunately English didn’t replace the term “toes” with its scientific one… YET.
Hell, I could even apply this to doctor names in English which require a dictionary for anyone trying to parse them. I had to look up half of them by the way.
Children’s Doctor <> Pediatrician
Women’s Doctor <> Gynecologist
Tooth Doctor <> Dentist (the least bad in my opinion - at least it’s short)
Eye Doctor <> Optometrist
Neck-Nose-Ear Doctor <> Otorhinolaryngologist (wtf???)
Skin Doctor <> Dermatologist
Like, surely there must have been (native) English terms for those doctors in the past. It’s not like the medical field popped into existence in the 1700’s. You can’t tell me a 15th century English peasent used Latin/Greek derived names for common specialized doctors.
Perfect example of why that is a bad approach. An Optometrist can measure your eyes for basic vision problems and monitor your retina issues, but you’d need an Ophthalmologist if you need surgery on those eyes for something the Optometrist finds.
Optometrists/opticians aren’t doctors over here though. They belong to the trades. This field doesn’t exist in Germany the same way it does in the US/Britain:
Wikipedia
Eye doctors does actually refer to ophthalmologist though, I picked the “wrong” translation which ignores the differing legal frameworks. Looking back, I certainly went to the full blown ophthalmologist just for optometric purposes.
Ot- => ear
rhin- => nose
laryng- => throat
or just ENT, I’ve heard that being used.
“ear-nose-throat” is commonly used in English.
And it kind of is like the medical field popped into existence in the 1700s.
Partially. In German, the term eye doctor has first been recorded in 1401 (ougenarzt) (according to Wikipedia).
The 1700’s made enormous medical progress - but it’s not like people prior to that had no need for specialized doctors. For example, according to etymonline the term “dentist” was first used in 1759. You can’t tell me dentists didn’t exist for many centuries prior to that and didn’t have an “English-derived”, self-explanatory term. I mean, I never knew “dent” was Latin for tooth until reading the etymology just now.
Sure, but many of those words for specialised doctors came to English through French, not directly from Latin or Greek. And I don’t think that you can reasonably argue that English words with French origins aren’t by now a native part of the language. We use many of the same names in Dutch too, coming from French loanwords.
Wasn’t English’s French influence mostly over by this point? The Norman conquest added a bunch of French vocabulary but by the 1700’s, England was a stable colonial power.
And for very frequently used terms - like anatomical terms - the English root remained mostly intact and loanwords weren’t used. Arm, nose, shoulder, knee, elbow etc. are not French in origin.
I suspect it could be remnant of nobility separating itself from the common people. By only ever referring to anything with its Latin term, you can distinguish the wealthy, highly-educated from the poorer, lesser-educated people. After all, if you spoke Latin and/or Greek those terms make a lot of intuitive sense.
French remained influential in the courts, higher education, and elite society long after it stopped being the “official” language. That last part is totally right.